Growing from failure, learning from the critics
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When two products seem to have identical features customers use price as a differentiator.
Note ‘seem’, it’s a perception.
I have been going through days and days of trollbox conversations and I would like to focus on one sentiment that stands out in the noise. Here is a conversation from last night (GMT) between jnt and celalit in the trollbox:
[b]jnt[/b]
celalit, is FTC scam coin? Pre-mined?[b]celalit[/b]
jnt, Its not pre-mined technically. However the starting difficulty was too low hence not a fair launch.
…[b]jnt[/b]
So FTC may have a good future because of the dev team and community?[b]celalit[/b]
jnt, Yes Dev team is good. but again its a clone of LTC and offers nothing new. For a new alt coin to success it should 1) offer something innovative 2) have a fair launch 3) good dev and community to support it."[sup][1][/sup]I see Feathercoin as a value innovation rather than a purely technological innovation. And I see it as a sustained innovator as opposed to a disruptive innovator like Napster. Facebook was not the first social network by far, Google not the first search engine. So my belief is that it’s not about being [i]first[/i] but about being [i]right[/i]; it’s about “understanding the nature of your reality ahead of your peers”[sup][2][/sup].
So does anyone want to help me tackle these issues head on?
[list type=decimal]
[list type=decimal]
[*]Is this just a clone coin?
[*]Does that matter?
[*]Why should people care about Feathercoin?
[*]Was too easy to mine early on?
[*]If that is true, is the damage now irreversible?
[/list]Please share your thoughts and wisdom. Thank-you.
[sup][1][/sup] Link to last thread in comment: http://trollboxarchive.com/byid.php?id=3288699
[sup][2][/sup] paraphrased Alain de Botton quote[/list] -
Quotes from Zerodrama…
[quote]There is a difference between updating our coin and updates to the cryptocoin concept.
The purpose of everyone updating to similar versions is that without faith in the cryptocoin concept, BTC, LTC, FTC, WTFC are just isolated projects with divided communities, and that means divided development resources, crippled ability to respond to bugs, delayed readiness for attacks that affect the whole community, incessant infighting.
If a coin fails to protect the time and effort of the users to a reasonable extent, the whole category of ideas is tainted.
What sets us apart is not our wallet software. IT should line up with the others, with the exception of features unique to our coin. What sets us apart is our ability to get people where they need to go. We are providing a service. This is not a race between programmers and math geeks. This is an honest contest between solution engineers (*marketing* seizure, stroke, vomit, choke *marketing*).[/quote]
[quote]We are not creating a coin. We are solving problems and making life easier. Let people use our code, we’ll use theirs, no big. They can’t copy pure style and dedication.[/quote]
I have another quote, but you’ll have to read it on my blog later.
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Credit for Tuck for reminding me of this thread:
This directly from Coblee:
"
Quote from: iopq on October 09, 2011, 06:23:47 AM
what’s the difference between this and fairbrix? also, what’s the guarantee that you won’t get 51%'d and lose like a crapload of coins?==
Fairbrix, like Tenebrix, has no cap in total number of coins. So it keeps inflating forever. Litecoin will have a cap similar to Bitcoin. Also, Fairbrix average transaction times is 5 minutes with 25 coins generated in a block. Litecoin is 2.5 minutes with 50 coins in a block.
One of the goals of Litecoin is to not change what’s working (from Bitcoin) unless there was a good reason to. Litecoin is also forked directly form the Bitcoin source code, so it won’t have any new security holes that doesn’t plague Bitcoin also. One of the reason why the first Fairbrix launch failed so miserable is because it is a fork of Tenebrix, a fork of Multicoin, a fork of Bitcoin. And somewhere in those forks, a nasty bug crept in that caused things to go horribly wrong."
Coblee understood that there was a lot more to a coin than whiz bang technical innovations. The same people that mock Feathercoin because of it’s Litecoin fork, never bothered to understand how Litecoin came into existence. Instead, we have this ‘BroCoin’ mentality of young guys running around beating their chests, failing to understand how products survive the market and using cute little phrases such as ‘ScamCoin’ ‘CrapCoin’ etc…
Tonight’s homework (for everyone): I want you to ask your parents (or non techy friends) what are the technical differences between how Money Gram and WU processes payments. Ask them what are the primary TECHNICAL differences between the Visa and Mastercard networks. They don’t care. The market wants a solution that makes sense financially, readily available and supported.
We’re developing our own innovations (see features_development board) however, that has zip to do with market penetration. What will make our coin successful is the niches we find and the support we offer those segments. Trying to explain that to a younger generation, especially those with a purely technical background is a challenge. This is the same challenge that businesses face each day with engineers.
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I’d rather work with people open to taking leaps ahead than people trying to be just different enough to float on the market.
This community moves. The rest do not.
Mention doing business that is meaningful for people and all the other bitcoin chasers talk about how it might happen five years in the future.
You will get no traction with them.
Also can we stop being so damn dramatic only two months into the life of a project. :)
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1. In a way yes, but that doesn’t even matter. Many threads show that Litecoin was basically a clone of Fairbrix, but look at them now.
2. Not really. It would really only matter if you were concerned with it dropping the prices of your current LTC investment. The reason it doesn’t really matter is because people who would use it for daily transactions don’t care about the differences between coins, only that it does what they expect it to do, which is transfer coins from one place to another. Any flaws FTC has would be irrelevant if you compared it to LTC, since they are the same. The only exception being that it is still somewhat vulnerable to huge hashrates since it is new and still has a low miner base.
3. People should care because we only seem the same as LTC for now. We’re evolving away from it, even if slowly. Because we are based off of LTC, it offers the same familiarity but with the benefits of any added features it receives.
4. Honestly this doesn’t even matter a few weeks after release, with most coins. Chances are most early miners have already dumped, so what advantage does this really prove? Even if some early miners are still holding, I’m sure there are several people who buy and sell larger amounts at BTC-e on a daily basis.
5. As stated above. There probably is no noticeable damage other than people using it as an excuse to put down FTC.
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[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“7454” timestamp=“1369745692”]
I’d rather work with people open to taking leaps ahead than people trying to be just different enough to float on the market.This community moves. The rest do not.
Mention doing business that is meaningful for people and all the other bitcoin chasers talk about how it might happen five years in the future.
You will get no traction with them.
Also can we stop being so damn dramatic only two months into the life of a project. :)
[/quote]I agree with most of what you said. The community will move regardless and there are some minds we’ll never change. With that being said, I have a lot of hours invested into the project, I’m all for people getting good information to handle reasonable opposition. Many people on these boards are a result of handling nonsense in trollbox for example. I know this is a fact because I received the emails. :)
Sometimes I feel like I’m trying to explain why a good medium-bodied caramel flavored beer can exist with Miller Lite with the general crypto community.
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^ THIS.
Reminds me of Microsoft trolls complaining about Linux not being up to snuff. Okay. Where is Microsoft in the Internet scene?
Like Blondie said, “Dig.”
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[quote name=“justabitoftime” post=“7456” timestamp=“1369746258”]
[quote author=zerodrama link=topic=953.msg7454#msg7454 date=1369745692]
I’d rather work with people open to taking leaps ahead than people trying to be just different enough to float on the market.This community moves. The rest do not.
Mention doing business that is meaningful for people and all the other bitcoin chasers talk about how it might happen five years in the future.
You will get no traction with them.
Also can we stop being so damn dramatic only two months into the life of a project. :)
[/quote]I agree with most of what you said. The community will move regardless and there are some minds we’ll never change. With that being said, I have a lot of hours invested into the project, I’m all for people getting good information to handle reasonable opposition. Many people on these boards are a result of handling nonsense in trollbox for example. I know this is a fact because I received the emails. :)
Sometimes I feel like I’m trying to explain why a good medium-bodied caramel flavored beer can exist with Miller Lite with the general crypto community.
[/quote]This is fantastic, I am learning a lot. My motivation for this enquiry was not so that I could change minds but just to put myself in the shoes of the another and try to understand their where they are coming from. I believe that an open ended curiosity like this constructive.
@justabitoftime Do you believe that in the future that we will see a multiplicity of currencies, a bit like Beer?
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[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“7459” timestamp=“1369746588”]
^ THIS.Reminds me of Microsoft trolls complaining about Linux not being up to snuff. Okay. Where is Microsoft in the Internet scene?
Like Blondie said, “Dig.”
[/quote]Yes and in the end the market settled for 3 main players, OS X, Windows and Linux. Good point. Given that there are many hundreds of national currencies globally how many crypto currencies do you think the global market will accept?
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We’re going to see currencies valued by distance and quality of living in a particular city. This will require:
megachains that are global
metachains that combine the hashrate
blockchains that serve an given area
parachains that serve a given industryStrap yourself in. It’s gonna be like the maiden voyage of the Enterprise.
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@aysyr thanks that was very helpful.
[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“7472” timestamp=“1369748067”]
We’re going to see currencies valued by distance and quality of living in a particular city. This will require:megachains that are global
metachains that combine the hashrate
blockchains that serve an given area
parachains that serve a given industryStrap yourself in. It’s gonna be like the maiden voyage of the Enterprise.
[/quote]
So much to like about this :) -
[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“7472” timestamp=“1369748067”]
We’re going to see currencies valued by distance and quality of living in a particular city. This will require:megachains that are global
metachains that combine the hashrate
blockchains that serve an given area
parachains that serve a given industryStrap yourself in. It’s gonna be like the maiden voyage of the Enterprise.
[/quote]Good thing about crypto currencies is that they are easy trade-able.
So there could exist a good portion of coins i think. -
[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“7472” timestamp=“1369748067”]
We’re going to see currencies valued by distance and quality of living in a particular city. This will require:megachains that are global
metachains that combine the hashrate
blockchains that serve an given area
parachains that serve a given industryStrap yourself in. It’s gonna be like the maiden voyage of the Enterprise.
[/quote]Sounds great, I think understood that :o
As long as we keep the Sporks from winning I’m ok.
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[quote name=“justabitoftime” post=“7451” timestamp=“1369745251”]
Credit for Tuck for reminding me of this thread:This directly from Coblee:
"
Quote from: iopq on October 09, 2011, 06:23:47 AM
what’s the difference between this and fairbrix? also, what’s the guarantee that you won’t get 51%'d and lose like a crapload of coins?==
Fairbrix, like Tenebrix, has no cap in total number of coins. So it keeps inflating forever. Litecoin will have a cap similar to Bitcoin. Also, Fairbrix average transaction times is 5 minutes with 25 coins generated in a block. Litecoin is 2.5 minutes with 50 coins in a block.
One of the goals of Litecoin is to not change what’s working (from Bitcoin) unless there was a good reason to. Litecoin is also forked directly form the Bitcoin source code, so it won’t have any new security holes that doesn’t plague Bitcoin also. One of the reason why the first Fairbrix launch failed so miserable is because it is a fork of Tenebrix, a fork of Multicoin, a fork of Bitcoin. And somewhere in those forks, a nasty bug crept in that caused things to go horribly wrong."
Coblee understood that there was a lot more to a coin than whiz bang technical innovations. The same people that mock Feathercoin because of it’s Litecoin fork, never bothered to understand how Litecoin came into existence. Instead, we have this ‘BroCoin’ mentality of young guys running around beating their chests, failing to understand how products survive the market and using cute little phrases such as ‘ScamCoin’ ‘CrapCoin’ etc…
Tonight’s homework (for everyone): I want you to ask your parents (or non techy friends) what are the technical differences between how Money Gram and WU processes payments. Ask them what are the primary TECHNICAL differences between the Visa and Mastercard networks. They don’t care. The market wants a solution that makes sense financially, readily available and supported.
We’re developing our own innovations (see features_development board) however, that has zip to do with market penetration. What will make our coin successful is the niches we find and the support we offer those segments. Trying to explain that to a younger generation, especially those with a purely technical background is a challenge. This is the same challenge that businesses face each day with engineers.
[/quote]Hmm. I guess what I am wondering from a perspective of adding value and innovation to a coin is…what does Feathercoin do better than Litecoin?
Litecoin obviously fixed the bugs generated in FBX, TBX etc.
What does Feathercoin offer?
I like the community vibe but from a technology standpoint what does Feathercoin do better?
I’m curious why there was no change in the the hashing algorithm to deter miners from quickly shifting from one chain to another scrypt chain?
Just wondering…those are fair questions.
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[quote name=“Smoothie” post=“8610” timestamp=“1370108090”]
[quote author=justabitoftime link=topic=953.msg7451#msg7451 date=1369745251]
Credit for Tuck for reminding me of this thread:This directly from Coblee:
"
Quote from: iopq on October 09, 2011, 06:23:47 AM
what’s the difference between this and fairbrix? also, what’s the guarantee that you won’t get 51%'d and lose like a crapload of coins?==
Fairbrix, like Tenebrix, has no cap in total number of coins. So it keeps inflating forever. Litecoin will have a cap similar to Bitcoin. Also, Fairbrix average transaction times is 5 minutes with 25 coins generated in a block. Litecoin is 2.5 minutes with 50 coins in a block.
One of the goals of Litecoin is to not change what’s working (from Bitcoin) unless there was a good reason to. Litecoin is also forked directly form the Bitcoin source code, so it won’t have any new security holes that doesn’t plague Bitcoin also. One of the reason why the first Fairbrix launch failed so miserable is because it is a fork of Tenebrix, a fork of Multicoin, a fork of Bitcoin. And somewhere in those forks, a nasty bug crept in that caused things to go horribly wrong."
Coblee understood that there was a lot more to a coin than whiz bang technical innovations. The same people that mock Feathercoin because of it’s Litecoin fork, never bothered to understand how Litecoin came into existence. Instead, we have this ‘BroCoin’ mentality of young guys running around beating their chests, failing to understand how products survive the market and using cute little phrases such as ‘ScamCoin’ ‘CrapCoin’ etc…
Tonight’s homework (for everyone): I want you to ask your parents (or non techy friends) what are the technical differences between how Money Gram and WU processes payments. Ask them what are the primary TECHNICAL differences between the Visa and Mastercard networks. They don’t care. The market wants a solution that makes sense financially, readily available and supported.
We’re developing our own innovations (see features_development board) however, that has zip to do with market penetration. What will make our coin successful is the niches we find and the support we offer those segments. Trying to explain that to a younger generation, especially those with a purely technical background is a challenge. This is the same challenge that businesses face each day with engineers.
[/quote]Hmm. I guess what I am wondering from a perspective of adding value and innovation to a coin is…what does Feathercoin do better than Litecoin?
Litecoin obviously fixed the bugs generated in FBX, TBX etc.
What does Feathercoin offer?
I like the community vibe but from a technology standpoint what does Feathercoin do better?
I’m curious why there was no change in the the hashing algorithm to deter miners from quickly shifting from one chain to another scrypt chain?
Just wondering…those are fair questions.
[/quote]Perhaps you can address my comments above.
Thanks
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On a technical stand point the difference is four times as many blocks, four times more frequent difficulty adjust at 41.4% and an IPv6 fix that has not been applied to Litecoin yet.
The IPv6 and difficulty change came after the initial release. This is the difference really. We are not afraid to change when faced with a problem. There are many features that have been requested by the community that we will implement.
When Scrypt ASICs come along we will have to decide whether we will continue the same hashing algorithm or change it. This will be a community decision and something that should not be a real concern for a while yet.
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Please point me in the direction of the proposed changes you mentioned.
Link to thread? Discussion?
thanks
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[quote name=“Smoothie” post=“8641” timestamp=“1370110719”]
Please point me in the direction of the proposed changes you mentioned.Link to thread? Discussion?
thanks
[/quote]
