FTC Diff Change
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Everyone’s pushing out ideas on adjusting the diff rate to get quicker confirms. Well, what is the acceptable network hashrate for a 2 month old coin? Is the problem that we want a min 1GH rate regularly and that we are not getting that?
Also, as a smaller miner I actually make more on smaller pools or when the network hashrate is down, diff up, because I can actually mine. Once the 10MH+ guys show up the smaller miners make about 40% less with smaller pools not being able to find blocks because the 700MH pools are soaking them up. Of course this is by design but it encourages centralization of pools.
my 0.000002 FTC
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Why don’t you come up with some sort of longevity or loyalty program for the miners? People switch because money matters, but if you setup a bonus program for say, 1FTC bonus for every 1mhash per day you bring to the table (or something else of value to compensate for those losing money by NOT switching) on all the major pools?
Would that not help? the network is crashing again and waiting for it to go down 40% only to sky rocket again (because it will be worth 0.02 more than some other coin)
I am still “donating” at give me ftc because I like you guys, except zerodrama, he acts like a drama queen.
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[quote name=“randomdef” post=“14297” timestamp=“1371152074”]
Why don’t you come up with some sort of longevity or loyalty program for the miners? People switch because money matters, but if you setup a bonus program for say, 1FTC bonus for every 1mhash per day you bring to the table (or something else of value to compensate for those losing money by NOT switching) on all the major pools?Would that not help? the network is crashing again and waiting for it to go down 40% only to sky rocket again (because it will be worth 0.02 more than some other coin)
I am still “donating” at give me ftc because I like you guys, except zerodrama, he acts like a drama queen.
[/quote]1. Longevity program - I’ve been looking into that recently, we’re on the same page. If you have a few ideas, please shoot them my way
2 Donating - We appreciate your help with mining
3. Zerodrama - Please no personal attacks
4. Before anyone responds to the Zero comment - Don’t -
[quote name=“justabitoftime” post=“14302” timestamp=“1371152403”]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14297#msg14297 date=1371152074]
Why don’t you come up with some sort of longevity or loyalty program for the miners? People switch because money matters, but if you setup a bonus program for say, 1FTC bonus for every 1mhash per day you bring to the table (or something else of value to compensate for those losing money by NOT switching) on all the major pools?Would that not help? the network is crashing again and waiting for it to go down 40% only to sky rocket again (because it will be worth 0.02 more than some other coin)
I am still “donating” at give me ftc because I like you guys, except zerodrama, he acts like a drama queen.
[/quote]1. Longevity program - I’ve been looking into that recently, we’re on the same page. If you have a few ideas, please shoot them my way
2 Donating - We appreciate your help with mining
3. Zerodrama - Please no personal attacks
4. Before anyone responds to the Zero comment - Don’t
[/quote]Well, in the miner relations forum I’ve seen nothing but a contest to brag about machines. Maybe a little more work with the actual relationship building would help.
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[quote name=“randomdef” post=“14308” timestamp=“1371152631”]
[quote author=justabitoftime link=topic=1741.msg14302#msg14302 date=1371152403]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14297#msg14297 date=1371152074]
Why don’t you come up with some sort of longevity or loyalty program for the miners? People switch because money matters, but if you setup a bonus program for say, 1FTC bonus for every 1mhash per day you bring to the table (or something else of value to compensate for those losing money by NOT switching) on all the major pools?Would that not help? the network is crashing again and waiting for it to go down 40% only to sky rocket again (because it will be worth 0.02 more than some other coin)
I am still “donating” at give me ftc because I like you guys, except zerodrama, he acts like a drama queen.
[/quote]1. Longevity program - I’ve been looking into that recently, we’re on the same page. If you have a few ideas, please shoot them my way
2 Donating - We appreciate your help with mining
3. Zerodrama - Please no personal attacks
4. Before anyone responds to the Zero comment - Don’t
[/quote]Well, in the miner relations forum I’ve seen nothing but a contest to brag about machines. Maybe a little more work with the actual relationship building would help.
[/quote]I see how it can appear like a ‘brag’ section. I’m actually using that information to touch base with hardware sites that might be interested in featuring some of these rigs. I might seem ‘random’, but I’m ‘justabit’ of planning. Yeah… that was bad. :)
Relationship building is great, would love feedback on specifics so we can hash out details.
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[quote name=“erk” post=“14310” timestamp=“1371152690”]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14308#msg14308 date=1371152631]
[quote author=justabitoftime link=topic=1741.msg14302#msg14302 date=1371152403]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14297#msg14297 date=1371152074]
Why don’t you come up with some sort of longevity or loyalty program for the miners? People switch because money matters, but if you setup a bonus program for say, 1FTC bonus for every 1mhash per day you bring to the table (or something else of value to compensate for those losing money by NOT switching) on all the major pools?Would that not help? the network is crashing again and waiting for it to go down 40% only to sky rocket again (because it will be worth 0.02 more than some other coin)
I am still “donating” at give me ftc because I like you guys, except zerodrama, he acts like a drama queen.
[/quote]1. Longevity program - I’ve been looking into that recently, we’re on the same page. If you have a few ideas, please shoot them my way
2 Donating - We appreciate your help with mining
3. Zerodrama - Please no personal attacks
4. Before anyone responds to the Zero comment - Don’t
[/quote]Well, in the miner relations forum I’ve seen nothing but a contest to brag about machines. Maybe a little more work with the actual relationship building would help.
[/quote] I will repeat myself.
The problem and topic of this thread is diff adjustments, not mining pool size, if you want to maintain a decent mining pool don’t give miners crappy profitability and you will always have a good pool of miners.
[/quote]Don’t bother repeating yourself. Say it once and walk away, it no one responded its because it was stupid and you should be ashamed, if it got a response, super great, lets talk.
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[quote name=“erk” post=“14310” timestamp=“1371152690”]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14308#msg14308 date=1371152631]
[quote author=justabitoftime link=topic=1741.msg14302#msg14302 date=1371152403]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14297#msg14297 date=1371152074]
Why don’t you come up with some sort of longevity or loyalty program for the miners? People switch because money matters, but if you setup a bonus program for say, 1FTC bonus for every 1mhash per day you bring to the table (or something else of value to compensate for those losing money by NOT switching) on all the major pools?Would that not help? the network is crashing again and waiting for it to go down 40% only to sky rocket again (because it will be worth 0.02 more than some other coin)
I am still “donating” at give me ftc because I like you guys, except zerodrama, he acts like a drama queen.
[/quote]1. Longevity program - I’ve been looking into that recently, we’re on the same page. If you have a few ideas, please shoot them my way
2 Donating - We appreciate your help with mining
3. Zerodrama - Please no personal attacks
4. Before anyone responds to the Zero comment - Don’t
[/quote]Well, in the miner relations forum I’ve seen nothing but a contest to brag about machines. Maybe a little more work with the actual relationship building would help.
[/quote] I will repeat myself.
The problem and topic of this thread is diff adjustments, not mining pool size, if you want to maintain a decent mining pool don’t give miners crappy profitability and you will always have a good pool of miners.
[/quote]I’m curious, does Litecoin plan to make these changes? There’s obviously disagreements on the approach. I would disagree that diff adjustment is the be-all end-all solution when we have people with hashing behind them to damage with a loose coordinated effort. I would look toward:
- Scrypt itself
- Some type of IDS/IPS approach
- Trusted pools
However, this is a difficulty focused thread, so I’ll let you guys go back to it!
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[quote name=“randomdef” post=“14312” timestamp=“1371152848”]
[quote author=erk link=topic=1741.msg14310#msg14310 date=1371152690]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14308#msg14308 date=1371152631]
[quote author=justabitoftime link=topic=1741.msg14302#msg14302 date=1371152403]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14297#msg14297 date=1371152074]
Why don’t you come up with some sort of longevity or loyalty program for the miners? People switch because money matters, but if you setup a bonus program for say, 1FTC bonus for every 1mhash per day you bring to the table (or something else of value to compensate for those losing money by NOT switching) on all the major pools?Would that not help? the network is crashing again and waiting for it to go down 40% only to sky rocket again (because it will be worth 0.02 more than some other coin)
I am still “donating” at give me ftc because I like you guys, except zerodrama, he acts like a drama queen.
[/quote]1. Longevity program - I’ve been looking into that recently, we’re on the same page. If you have a few ideas, please shoot them my way
2 Donating - We appreciate your help with mining
3. Zerodrama - Please no personal attacks
4. Before anyone responds to the Zero comment - Don’t
[/quote]Well, in the miner relations forum I’ve seen nothing but a contest to brag about machines. Maybe a little more work with the actual relationship building would help.
[/quote] I will repeat myself.
The problem and topic of this thread is diff adjustments, not mining pool size, if you want to maintain a decent mining pool don’t give miners crappy profitability and you will always have a good pool of miners.
[/quote]Don’t bother repeating yourself. Say it once and walk away, it no one responded its because it was stupid and you should be ashamed, if it got a response, super great, lets talk.
[/quote]Random, enough. I respect your idea, but the ‘stupid and should be ashamed’ has no place on this site. There’s an alt currency forum that caters to these type of response.
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[quote name=“erk” post=“14296” timestamp=“1371151633”]
The coin is safest from attack when the block rate is at it’s fastest. http://we.lovebitco.in/bitcoin-paper/#ch11The hash rate is irrelevant, it could be one PC mining and the block rate should still be 2.5min, however it’s the change in hash rate which is what we need to compensate for. The coin diff rate correction algorithm is designed to detect block creation velocity not acceleration, so is only works well when the hash rate is constant for long periods of time. Having a large base pool of miners is just a crude way of reducing hash rate acceleration/deceleration, thus working around the flaw in the diff correction algorithm. Reducing the sample period for the diff adjustment is also a workaround for the flaw in the diff correction algorithm, and in my opinion much cheaper and easier to achieve.
It’s now been several day since the last diff change and the Expected Time per Block has blown out to over 13min. [b]If FTC was being used by merchants for transactions there would be outrage[/b] If you have ever used Bitpay for BTC you would know that it gives you 15min to transfer your BTC, and BTC has a Expected Time per Block of 10min, so Bitpay gives you 50% room for error to complete the transfer. FTC Expected Time per Block is currently over 500% longer than intended, not just 50%, if it was on Bitpay all transactions would be failing.
[/quote]
Excuse me i’m a bit of un-informed on certain aspects so thus I ask questions to know more…
Just so we are on the same page, your idea is that a shorter block retarget period will achieve the 2.5 min mark. You also talk about acceleration rate being the real problem. Is a shorter block retarget the best option to solve acceleration/deceleration issues or are there other possibilities? And if the shorter block retarget is the solution what is the optimum span and how do you account for massive hash surges?[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14297#msg14297 date=1371152074]
Why don’t you come up with some sort of longevity or loyalty program for the miners? People switch because money matters, but if you setup a bonus program for say, 1FTC bonus for every 1mhash per day you bring to the table (or something else of value to compensate for those losing money by NOT switching) on all the major pools?Would that not help? the network is crashing again and waiting for it to go down 40% only to sky rocket again (because it will be worth 0.02 more than some other coin)
[/quote]
Right now the biggest problem with a lognevity program is it will come out of someone’s pocket. So essentially a bribe… Even though what we are trying to do as a community is a bit altruistic we are dealing with money. Now, PPLNS is suppose to resolve that but with the massive fluctuations and hijacks I’ve readily had my loyalty time destroyed in minutes.It would be great if we could not “give” out coins but make it “easier” for those who have been steadily hashing away to find blocks. This would encourage the solo miners and small pools while punishing the pump and dumpers. Most solo mining is waiting on finding a block if you are lucky. Then if there is a huge network hash rate you are really SOL. Of course how do you track that in a decentralized manner is another matter.
Also, as a whole the community doesn’t have a degree of control over mining pools so “acceptable” operator behavior has no real standard. Thus who has the biggest usually has the most sway…
My 0.000002 FTC
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Maybe a version of PPSLN over time rather than block? longer you mine, stronger the payout, regardless of luck?
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[quote name=“randomdef” post=“14334” timestamp=“1371155611”]
Maybe a version of PPSLN over time rather than block? longer you mine, stronger the payout, regardless of luck?
[/quote]
i don’t know the program specifics only experiences with different pools and random here/there. Wouldn’t that require the pool to keep some ftc in reserve then pull from it? Also, a 10MH+ account nearly resets things unless everyone in the pool is 10MH+. -
[quote name=“jeremiel” post=“14338” timestamp=“1371156016”]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14334#msg14334 date=1371155611]
Maybe a version of PPSLN over time rather than block? longer you mine, stronger the payout, regardless of luck?
[/quote]
i don’t know the program specifics only experiences with different pools and random here/there. Wouldn’t that require the pool to keep some ftc in reserve then pull from it? Also, a 10MH+ account nearly resets things unless everyone in the pool is 10MH+.
[/quote]I don’t know. Just ideas to keep miners rather than lose them every time something gets harder and they lose money. If you make it worth their time, or better then the average experience, then they might, but the second it drops below ANY other coin in profitability, it’s a run away train.
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[quote name=“justabitoftime” post=“14315” timestamp=“1371153218”]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14312#msg14312 date=1371152848]
[quote author=erk link=topic=1741.msg14310#msg14310 date=1371152690]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14308#msg14308 date=1371152631]
[quote author=justabitoftime link=topic=1741.msg14302#msg14302 date=1371152403]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14297#msg14297 date=1371152074]
Why don’t you come up with some sort of longevity or loyalty program for the miners? People switch because money matters, but if you setup a bonus program for say, 1FTC bonus for every 1mhash per day you bring to the table (or something else of value to compensate for those losing money by NOT switching) on all the major pools?Would that not help? the network is crashing again and waiting for it to go down 40% only to sky rocket again (because it will be worth 0.02 more than some other coin)
I am still “donating” at give me ftc because I like you guys, except zerodrama, he acts like a drama queen.
[/quote]1. Longevity program - I’ve been looking into that recently, we’re on the same page. If you have a few ideas, please shoot them my way
2 Donating - We appreciate your help with mining
3. Zerodrama - Please no personal attacks
4. Before anyone responds to the Zero comment - Don’t
[/quote]Well, in the miner relations forum I’ve seen nothing but a contest to brag about machines. Maybe a little more work with the actual relationship building would help.
[/quote] I will repeat myself.
The problem and topic of this thread is diff adjustments, not mining pool size, if you want to maintain a decent mining pool don’t give miners crappy profitability and you will always have a good pool of miners.
[/quote]Don’t bother repeating yourself. Say it once and walk away, it no one responded its because it was stupid and you should be ashamed, if it got a response, super great, lets talk.
[/quote]Random, enough. I respect your idea, but the ‘stupid and should be ashamed’ has no place on this site. There’s an alt currency forum that caters to these type of response.
[/quote]You have a big mouth.
The idea of idea’s being left behind because they are worthless are just that, worthless, idea’s that have worth, get picked up and used. Saying something worthless over and over and over, does not make it valuable.
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[quote name=“erk” post=“14318” timestamp=“1371153378”]
[quote author=justabitoftime link=topic=1741.msg14315#msg14315 date=1371153218]Random, enough. I respect your idea, but the ‘stupid and should be ashamed’ has no place on this site. There’s an alt currency forum that caters to these type of response.
[/quote]Those are not my words, just your interpretation, I don’t appreciate your personal attack, I will not contribute to this forum any longer.
[/quote]I’m not quite sure why you are quoting me with that comment. I’m the one that asked Random not to make the comment above. Please take a minute and re-read.
If you choose not to join us, that’s completely your choice. I’ve done my best to keep the conversation moving forward while pointing out personal attacks are not acceptable here.
Feel free to PM me if you want to to discuss this further.
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[quote name=“randomdef” post=“14345” timestamp=“1371157108”]
[quote author=justabitoftime link=topic=1741.msg14315#msg14315 date=1371153218]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14312#msg14312 date=1371152848]
[quote author=erk link=topic=1741.msg14310#msg14310 date=1371152690]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14308#msg14308 date=1371152631]
[quote author=justabitoftime link=topic=1741.msg14302#msg14302 date=1371152403]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1741.msg14297#msg14297 date=1371152074]
Why don’t you come up with some sort of longevity or loyalty program for the miners? People switch because money matters, but if you setup a bonus program for say, 1FTC bonus for every 1mhash per day you bring to the table (or something else of value to compensate for those losing money by NOT switching) on all the major pools?Would that not help? the network is crashing again and waiting for it to go down 40% only to sky rocket again (because it will be worth 0.02 more than some other coin)
I am still “donating” at give me ftc because I like you guys, except zerodrama, he acts like a drama queen.
[/quote]1. Longevity program - I’ve been looking into that recently, we’re on the same page. If you have a few ideas, please shoot them my way
2 Donating - We appreciate your help with mining
3. Zerodrama - Please no personal attacks
4. Before anyone responds to the Zero comment - Don’t
[/quote]Well, in the miner relations forum I’ve seen nothing but a contest to brag about machines. Maybe a little more work with the actual relationship building would help.
[/quote] I will repeat myself.
The problem and topic of this thread is diff adjustments, not mining pool size, if you want to maintain a decent mining pool don’t give miners crappy profitability and you will always have a good pool of miners.
[/quote]Don’t bother repeating yourself. Say it once and walk away, it no one responded its because it was stupid and you should be ashamed, if it got a response, super great, lets talk.
[/quote]Random, enough. I respect your idea, but the ‘stupid and should be ashamed’ has no place on this site. There’s an alt currency forum that caters to these type of response.
[/quote]You have a big mouth.
The idea of idea’s being left behind because they are worthless are just that, worthless, idea’s that have worth, get picked up and used. Saying something worthless over and over and over, does not make it valuable.
[/quote]Please save the cesspool back and forth for the alt currency type forums. [b] I’m not issuing another warning.[/b]
I’m at my wit’s end with this nonsense. I can’t imagine being in a board meeting listening to this type of dribble. Argue the point not personal comments.
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Number 4 from your list justabit stopped me :( but you have my backup zerodrama ;)
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[quote name=“jeremiel” post=“14331” timestamp=“1371154940”]
[quote author=erk link=topic=1741.msg14296#msg14296 date=1371151633]
The coin is safest from attack when the block rate is at it’s fastest. http://we.lovebitco.in/bitcoin-paper/#ch11The hash rate is irrelevant, it could be one PC mining and the block rate should still be 2.5min, however it’s the change in hash rate which is what we need to compensate for. The coin diff rate correction algorithm is designed to detect block creation velocity not acceleration, so is only works well when the hash rate is constant for long periods of time. Having a large base pool of miners is just a crude way of reducing hash rate acceleration/deceleration, thus working around the flaw in the diff correction algorithm. Reducing the sample period for the diff adjustment is also a workaround for the flaw in the diff correction algorithm, and in my opinion much cheaper and easier to achieve.
It’s now been several day since the last diff change and the Expected Time per Block has blown out to over 13min. [b]If FTC was being used by merchants for transactions there would be outrage[/b] If you have ever used Bitpay for BTC you would know that it gives you 15min to transfer your BTC, and BTC has a Expected Time per Block of 10min, so Bitpay gives you 50% room for error to complete the transfer. FTC Expected Time per Block is currently over 500% longer than intended, not just 50%, if it was on Bitpay all transactions would be failing.
[/quote]
Excuse me i’m a bit of un-informed on certain aspects so thus I ask questions to know more…
Just so we are on the same page, your idea is that a shorter block retarget period will achieve the 2.5 min mark. You also talk about acceleration rate being the real problem. Is a shorter block retarget the best option to solve acceleration/deceleration issues or are there other possibilities? And if the shorter block retarget is the solution what is the optimum span and how do you account for massive hash surges?
[/quote]I am going to drag in some calculus like I had talked about in my first post. Lets start off with the basics, the derivative of position is velocity, the derivative of velocity is acceleration. Lets apply this for a minute to the block chain, each completed block works exactly the same as a position, the network hashrate is our velocity, and the change in network hashrate is our acceleration. Currently diff retargets are based off the time it takes to complete the last x number of blocks. This like dividing up position locations into remansums and using this rough calculation to adjust the diff with a cap on how much it can change. Lets apply some calc 1 to this and get a much smoother picture of how the diff should be adjusted. As the remansum intervals for diff calculation approach 0 this would be the same as taking the derivative of position which is the current network hashrate . I am a bit groggy today from that long ass bruins game last night so there might be some errors in this.
The problems with this are instead of an equation we have a set of points that could be regressed to an approx equation that is changing on the fly as new information comes in and the data set grows. Now anyone who has taken calc knows that the smaller you slice the remansums (time interval) the closer we can get to the derivative without having to calculate it. Thus my proposal is cut the number of blocks to retarget down considerably and set a smaller cap on the % that the diff can change. This way when miners begin to join us we will retarget and adjust quicker and when they start leaving we will be able to retarget faster. Another example this can be compared to is compounding interest and the differences between yearly, monthly, weekly, and continually compounding interest.
My math these days is a bit rusty but I hope some of you can understand my suggestion.
As a side note in 3-4 weeks I should have free time again because ill be moved out of my current house and would love to join or help out the dev team.
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[quote name=“Markus1337” post=“14350” timestamp=“1371157429”]
Number 4 from your list justabit stopped me :( but you have my backup zerodrama ;)
[/quote]Argue ideas, not each other is fairly straight forward to me.
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While we welcome respectful discussion and debate, we will not tolerate personal attacks on any other member of the community.
You have been warned about this a number of times.
If you make another personal attack on any other member of the community, I will ban you, to avoid any accusations of unfairness to justabit.
Enough is enough.
Stefan
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So I’ve not heard a good argument against just lowering the retarget rate. One suggestion was that it reduced the value of the coin, but I’ve not understood that argument. Would anyone care to elaborate why having retargets every 100 blocks with a 41.1% cap on change be bad?