PPS pool?
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25543” timestamp=“1376466305”]
Spot on.On a pplns pool at the current difficulty block difficulty, going on averages it will take 174637 shares of difficulty 64 to find a block.
Now, if we (the miners) find a block in 1000 shares that just means that we get a share of the 200 coins after 1000 shares as opposed to 174637 and the miners are quids in. The pool op gets nothing (other than donations if people are kind enough). That scenario would make each share worth 0.2 ftc… Not a bad reward!
Now if we have a crappy round and we are 300000 shares in before we find a block, the miners are loosing coz they haven’t been payed out in a while. The pool op doesn’t really care though cos he won’t payout until the block is found AND CONFIRMED.
Now, in a PPS world that all changes. It becomes pool op vs miners in terms of who makes the most coin. ;)
Each share would be worth ~0.00114 (174637/200). Regardless of whether a block was found, the share was stale or the block is orphaned. Miners are paid for EVERY share they submit.
If a block was found after 1000 shares on a PPS pool, the operator only pays out a total of 1.145 ftc. And he’s quids in. The miners loose out though. On the flip side if a block is found after 300000 shares, the pool op has had to pay out 343ftc for the round so has to cough up 143ftc from his own wallet. Miners don’t care anymore as they know they’ll earn pretty much whatever the calculator says they will earn. No more “I only got 80% of my calculated…”
Now, as a final example. Take the recent attacks, most pools lost a good number of blocks as orphans. The pool op would foot the bill for that on pps! If we had 5 blocks orphaned the op losses 1000ftc, the miners on the other hand don’t care, they’re spending quite happily.
That’s why there’s a high fee for true pps pools. The pools ops take the risk not the miners.
Coinotrons rbpps is a pps pool with a twist - it will only pay once a block is confirmed so they don’t run the risk of orphans. The risk is shared between the miners and the ops hence a lower fee. If you want them to have the risk of orphans you’ll be paying 5%.
Hope that helps.
Nut.
[/quote]That helped me! I’m in!
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[quote]Regardless of whether a block was found, the share was stale or the block is orphaned. Miners are paid for EVERY share they submit.[/quote]
For every valid share. PPS pools don’t pay for stales usually.
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[quote name=“ghostlander” post=“25552” timestamp=“1376474317”]
[quote]Regardless of whether a block was found, the share was stale or the block is orphaned. Miners are paid for EVERY share they submit.[/quote]For every valid share. PPS pools don’t pay for stales usually.
[/quote]Ah yes, sorry. for every valid share.
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[quote name=“ghostlander” post=“25552” timestamp=“1376474317”]
[quote]Regardless of whether a block was found, the share was stale or the block is orphaned. Miners are paid for EVERY share they submit.[/quote]For every valid share. PPS pools don’t pay for stales usually.
[/quote]Some do, some dont.
Tbh though, i probably wouldn’t pay stale shares.
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NutNut - Thanks :) for encouraging more miners.
Have we any estimated time of arrival for auto-checkpoints?
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Gets my vote. I went back to mining litecoin for the past month or so because there are a couple of very stable and functional PPS pools that I really like. I don’t like PPLNS, I like having predictable and consistent results from PPS mining.
With a PPS pool for FTC I may return.
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An FTC PPS pool!
[img]http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/264/200/acb.jpg[/img]Or vice versa ;)
Anyway 4-5% fee sounds quite alright.
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Please PM me when/if this goes live. thanks!
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I’ll be running this as a closed pool to begin with where both Svennand and I mine it to ensure that we haven’t cocked up the calculations to badly. Then i will run a closed beta (means i get to play with the invite system ;) ) which you’ll be on.
I do want to stress though that if it all goes tits up i will close it down and only continue with the PPLNS pools so i don’t want a backlash if it never happens or i close it down shortly after opening. :-\
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25813” timestamp=“1376815861”]
I do want to stress though that if it all goes tits up i will close it down and only continue with the PPLNS pools so i don’t want a backlash if it never happens or i close it down shortly after opening. :-\
[/quote]I’m cool w/that. Just happy to see another PPS opportunity come along after Coinotron.
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Take a look at liteguardian.com or hypernova.pw for an idea of what I think makes a pool stand out, not just another mmcFE clone pool but something nicely presented with lots of user functions, stats and multiple servers that can be used for failover, which I think is very important if you want to reassure bigger miners.
In the case of hypernova, the reward scheme they use is CPPSRB which is apparently of a lower risk to the pool operators, maybe this could work better for your pool than traditional PPS?
Also please let me know if you want me to try out your PPS pool when it goes live as I’d be happy to help out.
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[quote name=“smz” post=“25896” timestamp=“1376924359”]
Take a look at liteguardian.com or hypernova.pw for an idea of what I think makes a pool stand out, not just another mmcFE clone pool but something nicely presented with lots of user functions, stats and multiple servers that can be used for failover, which I think is very important if you want to reassure bigger miners.In the case of hypernova, the reward scheme they use is CPPSRB which is apparently of a lower risk to the pool operators, maybe this could work better for your pool than traditional PPS?
Also please let me know if you want me to try out your PPS pool when it goes live as I’d be happy to help out.
[/quote]Its all in the process.
First priority is to get the PPS pool up and running 100%
So far the testing is going well. But theres some quirks here and there.
Rest assure when the pool is up and running i will not go into hibernate mode. Theres alot of ideas bounching around between me and nutnut.But for now the aim is a PPS Pool so people can go to a place and mine safely/without having to bet on luck ;)
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Hey guys, thanks for even thinking of providing this opportunity!
I hope no one takes this as an insult, but I finally feel like some sense of the community aspect of this community is starting to come back to life after the attempted 51% attack on the community {that’s how I take what happened after the UNOCS missed launch}. I guess that seed was planted in my mind from this thread[url=http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=2364.0]http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=2364.0[/url] some time ago. All that negativity and finger pointing nearly shut me down too. But, after lurking and reading/learning from the big guys, I really feel that this community will emerge stronger and tighter as a result.
All that said, I would be very happy to see PPS as an option, and even would offer to help test without reward {if that’s even possible} for a time if that would help you guys set things up.
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We are currently testing with half our hash strenght to check that payouts/disp information and so on are working correctly.
Theres also some adjustment to wallet size etc to have fallback cash for miner to get paid 24/7 disregarding block finds ;)As nutnut said there will be a closed beta run for some users, im sure we are able to fit you on that list if you want.
The reason for beta testing is that if shit hits the fan we are “small” enough group of miners to do failover manually so everyone gets out without a hitch, and gets paid accordinally++
Also for our own sake if something gets messed up it will not cost us to much out of our own wallet if its not working correct=) miners will get paid either way ::)For those wanting an update on how things are going.
*So far we have controlled that blocks are comming in accordingly. (needed to increase wallet size due to confirmation time is loooong)
*Now we’re awaiting a diff change to check that that works seemlessly for value pr share etc.
*Next thing in line is to go through the site checking that all information is correct etc.We’re not far from having something to present to the public, but we are not there just yet ;)
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NutNut, I’ve been mining on your P2Pool since you set it up, wouldn’t mind mining on your PPS pool too with some of my hashes if you’re still looking for Beta testers.
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With PPS pool there are some other problem. Some bad gays with big hashrate will easy empty your pool wallet. Dont forget that cgminer are open source, and someone can easy fix it in one minute so, that miner will never send really big diff shares to the pool. In that case you will pay for shares, say >64 diff, but that real shares which resolves blocks will be filtered at cgminer. I understand that the such attacker in this case had no big profit, but we’re talking about “bad guys”. May be they simply want to close pool in that way.
I know few such peoples, that are real scenario, not just theory.
In May i tryed to make PPS pool, but even with no any orphaned blocks, pool wallet in some days went down for -2000-3000 FTC. So pool gives no any profit for me, just looses. -
[quote name=“vasp” post=“25945” timestamp=“1376975290”]
With PPS pool there are some other problem. Some bad gays with big hashrate will easy empty your pool wallet. Dont forget that cgminer are open source, and someone can easy fix it in one minute so, that miner will never send really big diff shares to the pool. In that case you will pay for shares, say >64 diff, but that real shares which resolves blocks will be filtered at cgminer. I understand that the such attacker in this case had no big profit, but we’re talking about “bad guys”. May be they simply want to close pool in that way.
I know few such peoples, that are real scenario, not just theory.
In May i tryed to make PPS pool, but even with no any orphaned blocks, pool wallet in some days went down for -2000-3000 FTC. So pool gives no any profit for me, just looses.
[/quote]thanks for the tip.
If they find a way to filter packages based on diff size than all pools are exposed, not just pps. Will have a talk with nutnut about this one.
There are bad periods and theres good periods as regarding amount of blocks found. This we have to counter for with having a substantial size of wallet, or at least have a good eye on it to controll that it never runs out :) -
Don’t have time to explain in full right now but if someone “filtered” the block out at cgminer level and directed to a different wallet, it would no longer be a valid block. ;)
Also, that’s no different from any other pool… get a share of everyone elses work but keep your own blocks.
All that said and done, have you any hard evidence of it happening? There are some clever guys out there… :-\
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25951” timestamp=“1376981283”]
Don’t have time to explain in full right now but if someone “filtered” the block out at cgminer level and directed to a different wallet, it would no longer be a valid block. ;)Also, that’s no different from any other pool… get a share of everyone elses work but keep your own blocks.
All that said and done, have you any hard evidence of it happening? There are some clever guys out there… :-\
[/quote]Yes, i understand that they cant use this big diff shares for own use, cause there are pool wallet imprinted in block, but
there are no such goal. They getting paid for every thousands of sent shares, but your actualy will never find any blocks from that miners because this shares which solves blocks simply never be sent to the pool. On other than PPS pools - they just steal money from fair miners, but on PPS pool - pool owner pays for all that :( -
[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25951” timestamp=“1376981283”]
Don’t have time to explain in full right now but if someone “filtered” the block out at cgminer level and directed to a different wallet, it would no longer be a valid block. ;)Also, that’s no different from any other pool… get a share of everyone elses work but keep your own blocks.
All that said and done, have you any hard evidence of it happening? There are some clever guys out there… :-\
[/quote]Vasp wants to say those guys with big hash rates may attack your pool by not sending you shares which find blocks. They cannot cash them, but they won’t let you, too. They will send you only regular shares solved and receive PPS payments for them. The attackers lose nearly nothing this way, but the pool becomes bankrupt in the long run.
